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Andrea
Joined: 23 Aug 2008
Posts: 7
Location: Italy
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 Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:55 am Post subject: Help with mahAbhArataM, 02.052.018 |
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Dear all,
I can understand this shlokaM, but I cannot understand why in the first line it says 'apatat' instead of 'patati'.
daivaṁ prajñāṁ tu muṣṇāti tejaś cakṣur ivāpatat
dhātuś ca vaśam anveti pāśair iva naraḥ sitaḥ
It's yudhIshthira speaking while going to the game of dices:
Fate clouds wisdom like splendor (is it good to tranlsate tejaH with 'splendor'?) overcomes sight,
senses follow desire like a man bound by chains.
(I hope the text is readable, otherwise I will post it in english phonetic).
Thank you very much for your help,
Andrea
Venice, Italy |
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ajit
Joined: 04 Aug 2006
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 3:04 am Post subject: past tense in vedic literature |
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| In vedic literature, the past tenses (lu~N, la~N, liT) are optionally used in a normal sense (in the sense of laT). It is possible that this has some spill over in puranas & itihasas. The Paninian sutra governing this use in vedic literature is 3.4.6. |
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Andrea
Joined: 23 Aug 2008
Posts: 7
Location: Italy
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| Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 6:45 am Post subject: |
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Aatmiya Ajit,
dhanyavaadaH, this helps a lot.
Andrea
Venice, Italy
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yaajushi
Joined: 31 Oct 2006
Posts: 80
Location: India
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| Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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daivaṁ prajñāṁ tu muṣṇāti tejaś cakṣur ivāpatat
dhātuś ca vaśam anveti pāśair iva naraḥ sitaḥ
Fate clouds wisdom like splendor (is it good to tranlsate tejaH with 'splendor'?) overcomes sight,
senses follow desire like a man bound by chains.
wont the literal translation be 'daiva clouds prajna, as if tejas (in this context, wudnt it be bright light?) fell on the eyes?' which, i think is exactly how one speaks? (didnt look up the dictionary for the translation and have kept mushnati=clouds as it is)
in hindi it'd be, daiva prajna ko dhak leta hai, mano aakhen chaundhiya gai ho/mano aakhon par tej roshni aa giri..... in which, again, the second half goes in past tense.
languages, especially spoken, rule in their own way rather than sticking to grammar rules. luckily, i guess, sanskrit grammar rules accomodate the spoken styles, as explained in the earlier post 
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Andrea
Joined: 23 Aug 2008
Posts: 7
Location: Italy
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:03 am Post subject: |
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| yaajushi wrote: |
wont the literal translation be 'daiva clouds prajna, as if tejas (in this context, wudnt it be bright light?) fell on the eyes?' which, i think is exactly how one speaks? (didnt look up the dictionary for the translation and have kept mushnati=clouds as it is)
[...]
languages, especially spoken, rule in their own way rather than sticking to grammar rules. luckily, i guess, sanskrit grammar rules accomodate the spoken styles, as explained in the earlier post |
If I am not wrong you suggest to translate 'daiva clouds prajna, like teja having fallen on the eyes'.
Your suggestion is indeed very interesting, I was wondering only on a couple of things:
1 the preceding shlokas do not speak about any teja falling on the eyes (so one could not translate, for instance, 'like the teja falled on the eyes', because there is not such a context).
2 I don't know of any particular meaning of iva + imperfect tense.
I would be very interested in knowing your opinion.
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yaajushi
Joined: 31 Oct 2006
Posts: 80
Location: India
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| Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:27 am Post subject: |
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basic point is, i do not suggest to translate at all..... i gave a corresponding sentence in hindi and english, thats all. i am no grammarian so dnt know the abc of what panini says on what. 
as for the teja falling on eyes, i guess there shudnt be any need at all for any reference. isnt it just an example given to explain how daiva clouds the prajna?
in geeta when krishna says 'yatholbenaavrto garbhastatha tenedamaavrtam', the geeta doesnt give any reference of ulba or grabha before or after the shloka.
when u say, she sings the song as if a river were flowing, u dnt need any reference of the flowing river, do u?
or may be i'm wrong? 
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yaajushi
Joined: 31 Oct 2006
Posts: 80
Location: India
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| Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:33 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
If I am not wrong you suggest to translate 'daiva clouds prajna, like teja having fallen on the eyes'.
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and no, i dnt translate it as 'like teja having fallen....'.
i say, 'daiva clouds prajna, as if (the mano in hindi wud fit better, though) the bright light fell on the eyes.
'teja having fallen...' wud definitely need a reference but then thats a clearly wrong translation.
| Quote: |
I don't know of any particular meaning of iva + imperfect tense.
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as for not knowing, i know nothing at all, and as i said i havent studied any grammar, but since i can speak the language, i may safely say that non-availability of examples in literature shud not mean non-existence of the pattern/form/whatever-u-call-it
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yaajushi
Joined: 31 Oct 2006
Posts: 80
Location: India
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| Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:39 am Post subject: |
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what i dnt understand is, tejah cakshurivaapatat in itself doesnt make sense to me guess its time for me to learn some grammar 
shudnt it be 'tejah chakshushi/chakshushoh apatat'?
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Andrea
Joined: 23 Aug 2008
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Location: Italy
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| Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:49 am Post subject: |
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| yaajushi wrote: | | what i dnt understand is, tejah cakshurivaapatat in itself doesnt make sense to me guess its time for me to learn some grammar |
It is to be read without sandhi as:
tejaH cakshuH iva apatat
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yaajushi
Joined: 31 Oct 2006
Posts: 80
Location: India
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| Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 4:14 am Post subject: |
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with sandhi or without sandhi doesnt make any difference in its vibhakti, boss
its prathamaa all the same
what am i missing? 
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Andrea
Joined: 23 Aug 2008
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yaajushi
Joined: 31 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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but still, prathama or dwitiya, what difference does it make?
what rule of karaka is being applied here? because as much as i know, it shud've been a saptami
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Andrea
Joined: 23 Aug 2008
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Location: Italy
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| Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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tejaH cak.suH iva apatat
tejaH prathama vibh = splendor
cak.suH dvitiya vibh = sight
iva = like
apatat (with dvitiya or saptami vibh) = to fall over to overcome
as brightness falls on sight
Ajit said that lu~N, la~N, liT can be used with the same meaning of laT in the vedic language, which is expleined by PaNini in 3.4.6.
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